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	<title>Comments on: Would the engineer please stand up?</title>
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	<link>http://www.nobugs.org/blog/archives/2003/11/16/would-the-engineer-please-stand-up/</link>
	<description>Thoughts of a software engineer</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Anthony Bailey</title>
		<link>http://www.nobugs.org/blog/archives/2003/11/16/would-the-engineer-please-stand-up/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Bailey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 01:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The comparison of software vs physical engineering practices works well for me when we're talking about using large and often third-party components such as software libraries. It's clear that most software component reuse doesn't involve as much consideration as you observe to be the norm in the more mature fields of physical engineering, and I thank you for that insight - there are lessons to be learned.

I do think there are good reasons why "that level of formality never seems to get carried on down to the level of actual coding" though. If I understand correctly what you mean by "actual coding" then it involves the engineering team spec-ing and manufacturing in-house a very large number of very small components (methods and classes and whatnot.) It seems that the systems being created are orders of magnitude more complex than a physical engineering team of a similar size would attempt, so less formality can be justified.

Over time though, every software engineer I know has seemed to find that even for agile and able thinkers, the optimum balance between formality and flexibility is considerably further away from "it seems to work" than they expect...!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comparison of software vs physical engineering practices works well for me when we&#8217;re talking about using large and often third-party components such as software libraries. It&#8217;s clear that most software component reuse doesn&#8217;t involve as much consideration as you observe to be the norm in the more mature fields of physical engineering, and I thank you for that insight - there are lessons to be learned.</p>
<p>I do think there are good reasons why &#8220;that level of formality never seems to get carried on down to the level of actual coding&#8221; though. If I understand correctly what you mean by &#8220;actual coding&#8221; then it involves the engineering team spec-ing and manufacturing in-house a very large number of very small components (methods and classes and whatnot.) It seems that the systems being created are orders of magnitude more complex than a physical engineering team of a similar size would attempt, so less formality can be justified.</p>
<p>Over time though, every software engineer I know has seemed to find that even for agile and able thinkers, the optimum balance between formality and flexibility is considerably further away from &#8220;it seems to work&#8221; than they expect&#8230;!</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Birkett</title>
		<link>http://www.nobugs.org/blog/archives/2003/11/16/would-the-engineer-please-stand-up/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Birkett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 01:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nobugs.org/blog/archives/2003/11/16/would-the-engineer-please-stand-up/#comment-44</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Anthony: It seems that the systems being created are orders of magnitude more complex than a physical engineering team of a similar size would attempt, so less formality can be justified.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yeah, there's the old "people want a good product *today*, not a perfect product 5 years from now" tradeoff in the Real World.  If anything, I think greater complexity should ideally justify greater formality, not less, but if you have a fixed amount of "developer hours" then something has to give.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Anthony: It seems that the systems being created are orders of magnitude more complex than a physical engineering team of a similar size would attempt, so less formality can be justified.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah, there&#8217;s the old &#8220;people want a good product *today*, not a perfect product 5 years from now&#8221; tradeoff in the Real World.  If anything, I think greater complexity should ideally justify greater formality, not less, but if you have a fixed amount of &#8220;developer hours&#8221; then something has to give.</p>
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		<title>By: Kimberley Burchett</title>
		<link>http://www.nobugs.org/blog/archives/2003/11/16/would-the-engineer-please-stand-up/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimberley Burchett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 01:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nobugs.org/blog/archives/2003/11/16/would-the-engineer-please-stand-up/#comment-45</guid>
		<description>I like longer blog entries, as long as they're not just stream of consciousness.  I like your entries a lot.  If you're feeling like your entries are too long, you should check out &lt;a href="http://blogs.gotdotnet.com/cbrumme/"&gt;Chris Brumme's blog&lt;/a&gt;.

Also, feel free to just chop off a long entry abruptly, if you feel the domino effect of idea association has gotten out of hand.  I've done this a couple times, and I find that it's useful to have gotten it out at least.  It makes the thoughts more concrete and easier to work with.  And if you're lucky, people will post comments that will take you in directions you might not have thought of on your own.

In short, don't strive for perfection, just aim for something that has a minimum level of interesting-ness.  It's up to you what that level is.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like longer blog entries, as long as they&#8217;re not just stream of consciousness.  I like your entries a lot.  If you&#8217;re feeling like your entries are too long, you should check out <a href="http://blogs.gotdotnet.com/cbrumme/">Chris Brumme&#8217;s blog</a>.</p>
<p>Also, feel free to just chop off a long entry abruptly, if you feel the domino effect of idea association has gotten out of hand.  I&#8217;ve done this a couple times, and I find that it&#8217;s useful to have gotten it out at least.  It makes the thoughts more concrete and easier to work with.  And if you&#8217;re lucky, people will post comments that will take you in directions you might not have thought of on your own.</p>
<p>In short, don&#8217;t strive for perfection, just aim for something that has a minimum level of interesting-ness.  It&#8217;s up to you what that level is.</p>
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